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Episode Transcript:

Hey, y'all, it's that time of year again. I don't know how it happens so fast. The holiday. And I'm in the kitchen, which, for me, is where joy lives—and grief, too.

I'm thinking about all those recipes, y'all. The sweet, sweet memories as I reach for brown sugar and cinnamon and nutmeg for my sweet potato pie. Not exactly world-famous, but if you know, well, then you know.

♪ Sweet, sweet, sweet, sweet potato pie. ♪
♪ Sweet potato pie. ♪

Mmmmm. Yes, Grief has her own flavor. And at this time of year, I don't know about you, but I'm hungry. Heart hungry. I need company. I need the sense of belonging that can be found when we stir it up in the big bowl of community.

So welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome to our holiday Great Grief special.

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Nnnenna Freelon: Let's take a moment to breathe, first of all, in gratitude for this moment together. Ah. Let's do that again; that felt good.

Let's give acknowledgment to this beautiful land. Good greetings from the lands of the Occoneechee band of the Saponi Nation. We sit here, on the banks of the Eno River and acknowledge our named and nameless ancestors who worked and built upon these lands in gratitude.

I'd like to introduce my wonderful partner and fellow grief sojourner, Courtney Napier. I said her name the French way. It's beautiful.

Courtney Napier: That's what it is from now on. It is such an honor to be in this space, to remember, and to spend time remembering with you in this beautiful home that your incredible husband built. And to be here with all of these incredible folks who you gathered so lovingly and thoughtfully to share their stories of grief and grieving, celebrating and remembering.

Miss Glenda, if we can start with you, if you don't mind sharing the first name of the loved one or loved ones that you are bringing into the space with us today.

Glenda Jones: I am honored to bring into the space my mother Mary Jones. Welcome, Mary Jones.

Lois Deloatch: I am pleased to bring into the space my mother, Rosa May, and three brothers, Robert, Donald, and Walter Junior.

Joshua Vincent: I would like to bring in my grandmother, Jenny.

Kristen Hopkins: I would love to bring in my grandmother, Daisy Chandler.

Nnnenna Freelon: I'd like to bring my beloved husband, Phil Freelon. I don't have to invite him because this is his house, he's always up in here. And also, my sister Debbie and my aunt, who just recently transitioned—she was 92, and her name was Deborah. So, my sister was named for this aunt who passed. Come on in, y'all come on in, y'all come on in. Hi, Deborah. Hi, Debbie.

Courtney Napier: I bring in my cousin Amanda, my grandmother, Grandma Laura, and my granny, Granny Lorraine. This feels much more like a holiday, doesn't it? It's a whole house.

Nnnenna Freelon: I think I smell some cornbread dressing. All those old good recipes.

So, we have a saying in the African American tradition—we have a saying that every goodbye ain't gone. Has anybody ever heard that? Every goodbye ain't gone? You know, every shuteye ain't sleep. That's right. That's right. So let's explore that musically—that every goodbye ain't gone.

[Music] [Singing]

♪ Every goodbye ain't gone. ♪
♪ Every goodbye ain't gone. ♪
♪ Lay my body down, but my soul lives on. ♪
♪ Every goodbye ain't gone. ♪
♪ Every shuteye ain't sleep. ♪
♪ Every shuteye ain't sleep. ♪
♪ We may rest but not be in peace. ♪
♪ Every shuteye ain't sleep. ♪
♪ Every goodbye ain't gone. ♪
♪ Every goodbye ain't gone. ♪
♪ Every goodbye ain't gone. ♪
♪ Every goodbye ain't gone. ♪
♪ Lay my body down, but my soul lives on. ♪
♪ Every goodbye ain't gone. ♪

[Music]

This is such a comfort to me that every good by ain't gone. I hope it's a comfort to you. Let's talk about it.

Courtney Napier: Oh, absolutely. So beautiful that maybe—and let's talk about it—what if grief is another way of loving? How have you kind of had those moments as you're thinking about all the people that are with us right now? And you're feeling that pull, that pull downward, the emotions that come, the sadness, and then you realize, wow, they met so much to me. Describe one of those moments if you would, Josh; how did those moments kind of manifest for you?

Joshua Vincent: For me, I think I learned to find a beautiful balance of loss, especially this year, because it was happening around me so often. And because it was frequent in a short amount of time, I think in about, in less than 60 days, I lost three people close to me. Two aunts and a friend. And there was a kind of preliminary kind of conversations that had kind of prepped me for it as I began to reflect on the impact of that loss. And it began to become clear to me that this grief, this loss, was something that required me to be in relationship with it and not in control of. And so I learned, I am learning still, to find those loving points when the pain comes to understand that kind of balance between the grief and love and what it really means to be in a relationship with people, even when they're no longer here.

Courtney Napier: Yes, wow, yes, in relationship with grief, not controlling grief. That is beautiful. That is love.

Nnnenna Freelon: That sounds like that needs to be a song.

[Music] [Singing]

♪ To be, to be in relationship, ♪
♪ and not controlling. ♪
♪ I lean into you with love; ♪
♪ I lean into you. ♪

Courtney Napier: Yes. Losing someone is not the only definition of grief. I think we've all experienced a collective grieving over the past few years on a lot of levels, from the political nature that we're in, where Black Lives and the importance and the mattering of Black Lives has been put into question, to an economy that is less than predictable, to the restriction of our ability to move about freely—to see our loved ones, to go to the things that bring us joy because of COVID and all the things that we lost during that time.

If anyone feels comfortable, what are some of the things that the other things that you've been grieving outside of the loved ones that we've lost?

Lois Deloatch: I particularly mourn the loss of togetherness and community in a physical, intimate way. Although we are emerging from the depths of the pandemic, we're having to relearn how to move and be with each other in a more organic and natural way. Whether to mask or not to mask, who you can invite in your home, and we all went through that period of, are they vaccinated or not vaccinated? It's a lot at an emotional level, a spiritual level, a physical level. So I think, more than anything else, I'm trying to adapt and be flexible and get glimpses of joy now, as opposed to having to analyze and calculate every situation a year ago.

Courtney Napier: Almost like redefining what joy, togetherness, community, thoughtfulness around your health, and so forth. Redefining what that looks like. Kristen, do you have some more to add there? 

Kristen Hopkins: Yeah, for me, pre-COVID, I would say I didn't know I was such a big hugger, right? And then I grieved hugging people, like it was the lack of the interaction but also the physical touch. I was not, that was not my love language until after COVID, I realized I needed to be touched. I needed to be, you know, hugged, and that was a grieving process in itself. 

Courtney Napier: Kristen, that hits. That hits for me. Miss Glenda, I feel I could see something in your face. There's something going on behind these beautiful eyes.

Glenda Jones: There's a lot going on behind the eyes. I feel that one of the things I grieved the loss of is seeing smiles. A smile communicates so much, and with a mask, we can't see the smile. And I connected with people I didn't even know through a smile. So that's one of the things that I grieved.

Nnnenna Freelon: I had forgotten about that. I don't even recognize some people with a mask on. And so it's like, and even when I'm out, I want people to know it's me. So I'm tempted to pull that mask down so you're clear, hey, it's me.

And we have friends and loved ones who are not deceased but who are in an Alzheimer's cloud, and their bodies are here, but their minds are elsewhere. We have friends who've lost jobs. That's a grief. That's a heavy grief. We have friends who are incarcerated, who they're not passed away, but they are put away. And there is a grief also around these holidays that we cannot be together. I think everyone is sharing that same heaviness of spirit, of not being able to be with those that we love.

So I have written a song which I think would be really great to do right now. And it's such a new song that it doesn't have a title. Maybe you can title the song for us.

[Music] [Singing]

♪ Grief comes dressed in robes like rain. ♪
♪ Drapes 'round my jagged edges again. ♪
♪ Swallow hard this bitter, bitter groove. ♪
♪ An empty cup that once held you. ♪
♪ An empty cup that once held you. ♪
♪ And though the bells ring joyfully. ♪
♪ Peace on earth and blessed be. ♪
♪ This time of year may also free, ♪
♪ The sounds of sorrows and melody, melody. ♪
♪ The sounds of sorrow's, melody. ♪

[Music]

♪ We hark, harold, endless and deep. ♪
♪ The angels sing and safely keep ♪
♪ All that time gives or takes away. ♪
♪ The human heart, to heal, must break. ♪
♪ The human heart, to heal, must break. ♪

[Music]

So, it's that season right? The season that we call merry-making, joy. But it is also the season of sorrow.

♪ Deck the halls with boughs of holly. ♪
♪ 'Tis the season to be jolly, yeah. ♪
♪ Don we now our gay apparel. ♪
♪ Sing ancient Yuletide carol. ♪

♪ Deck the halls with boughs of holly. ♪
♪ 'Tis the season to be jolly, yeah. ♪
♪ Don we now our queer apparel. ♪
♪ Sing ancient Yuletide carol. ♪
♪ [Scatting] ♪
♪ Tis the season to be, ♪
♪ Tis the season to be jolly. ♪
♪ ♪

And here we are, Fa-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-ing!

Courtney Napier: In all of our queer apparel, honey.

Nnenna Freelon: Yes, we never know the years going to give or to take away. But here we are again, and there's the tension between what we remember, what we desire, what we long for, and what is. That's the tension, oh yeah, yes.

Nnenna Freelon: Yes, that tension—that tension between what we want and what we have. I want to talk a little bit about the way that the traditions have changed. That's what that reminds me of. How have we adapted? Miss Lois, you mentioned adaptation earlier. How have we adapted some of the traditions? How have we maybe brought in new ones to bring in feelings that maybe for a moment we thought were going to be lost during a holiday season?

Lois Deloatch: Wow, I think of fogged windows in the kitchen and my mother cooking because all of the relatives were coming from Philadelphia and Brooklyn. And you know, and it's after hog-killing time but not quite Christmas, and it's all about preparation. Those memories are deep and rich, and you always want to evoke some of those. So, who's going to make—or attempt to make—Mama's chicken pot pie or Granny's sweet potato pudding? Who would dare attempt to do that? But somebody usually will. And so it's about missing those who are no longer here but bringing them into the space in a different way.

Nnnenna Freelon: You just said something so profound: the diasporic nature of our traditions. Now that Grandma, Granny, and Auntie are not with us in the physical, now, we tell those stories. So our stories whole power too. You talk about it—even though she didn't leave us a recipe. I mean, they be going on to glory with them recipes.

Kristen Hopkins: That feast at the table is going to be fire.

Courtney Napier: Miss Glenda, something that you mentioned about the memories being in different locations.

Glenda Jones: Something that has helped me is actually traveling during that time, to create new memories. And I take my ancestors with me during those times. It has really been a tradition that I have started and maintained for about five years now, and has really helped me in the process of. In my journey, my grieving process. And now it's like I really look forward to that time. This time of year coming because absolutely we have more time off work, and people are able to move around. So it does help me. Even if it's a just a distraction, it's an absolutely healthy distraction.

Courtney Napier: Yes, absolutely. Healthy distractions are welcome, especially in the holidays. Look at you, Glenda. Creating new distractions. I love it. Josh, I feel like there's something going on, you had your hand on your chin.

Joshua Vincent: Yeah, I'm just kind of going off of what Miss Glenda said, creating new memories. And how important that is to like the overall kind of, or at least my process for grieving. Like knowing that there are going to be additional opportunities as long as there's life in me to experience new memories that don't necessarily cover up experiences or pain, but are gentle reminders or additional ornaments to the experience of life. And so that's one of the things that I've gotten really excited about. We drove up the Blue Ridge Parkway a couple of weeks ago, and just creating memories to add on to your life in that, knowing that as long as we have breath and have life that those ornaments are coming.

Nnnenna Freelon: I love the word ornament! We got a brother who's a poet. 

So, it's been a challenge for me. I now live alone. And those celebrations, Christmas, Hanukkah, Ramadan, Kwanza—family gatherings of all kinds—the musical, cultural, food traditions, they all collide against the backdrop of losses, challenges, major life shifts. And that ushers in all kinds of feelings, sometimes in opposition to each other, because I have grandchildren also, and I want them to feel the joy. But sometimes your heart is carrying more than one, you know, sort of vibe. But I miss my Phil so much during this time of year.

I don't know about you, but for me, music holds the holidays. And maybe because of that, it also holds my grief and my joy.

[Music] [Singing]

♪ O little town of Bethlehem ♪
♪ How still we see thee lie ♪
♪ Above thy deep and dreamless sleep ♪
♪ The silent stars go by ♪
♪ Yet in thy dark streets shineth ♪
♪ The everlasting light ♪
♪ The hopes and fears of all the years ♪
♪ Are met in thee tonight ♪
♪ ♪

So, our little town transformed by loss—our deep and dreamless sleep. The shuttered windows and doors are our lives transformed into an unrecognizable place. What a strange place indeed. And who walks these streets?

This little town, this little town, this little town, the one we've been thrust into by grief, is foreign, and we are refugees.

♪ Little town, ♪
♪ I live in this little lonely town. ♪
♪ Knock knock, who's there, who's there, who's there, who's there, who's there, lonely town. ♪
♪ Shuttered windows and doors, ♪
♪ Streets are deserted, ♪
♪ No decorations, no candles in the window. ♪
♪ How can I? How can I? How can I live in this lonely town? ♪
♪ ♪

What do we do when we feel like we are the only ones in this space?

Courtney Napier: Your words took me back to the day that my cousin passed away. And I've been thinking about this question for a few minutes now: Where do you go to let go? Like where do you go to release the grief? You know, that energy, as it grows, especially during this time of year, it strengthens, it pushes against those boundaries that we've put it in to go through our day-to-day. When it gets stronger, where do you go to release that? 

Lois Deloatch: I go to music, and I go to the outdoors. Having been raised in a rural area, this time of year is just absolutely magical. I go to the outdoors. But I also preface it by identifying what you said about being in a different space.

The evening my brother Donald passed away. I remember staying overnight, and then coming out that morning and looking at the world go on as if nothing had happened. And I screamed, and I was angry. It's like, don't you know that my brother just died? How can the sun just be the same, and the traffic go on, and people go back and forth? Don't you know that something significant has happened?

But when you move beyond that, it really is finding the places that inspire you and that soothe you. And for me, it's music, and it's the outdoors.

Courtney Napier: Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Josh, if you are comfortable sharing, where have you gone? Where do you go?

Joshua Vincent: For me, music is a critical part of it. I have come to think of it a little bit deeper than just the music. It's kind of where I learn discipline. I've heard said that, you know, if you're trying to find your way out, you have to go to where you first learn your discipline. And so, for me, music was the first place that I learned discipline. It was practice schedules. It was, you know, fundamentals. But for me, also sports, like working out, was a place where I learned and discipline was re-enforced in my life. And so between the gym and music, those are the two kinds of, I call them my altars. They're my places that I go to kind of deal with grief.

Courtney Napier: That sweat offering, right?

Nnnenna Freelon: Tears, sweat, snot. All of it. All your body, water.

So, I want to talk for a minute about the blues. The blues. The fact that the blues is that unique African-American art form created out of stories of circumstance. Hard times, difficult times, things longed for, things wished for, things you have that you now you wish you didn't have. I mean, there's a whole long list. So we've got a holiday blues.

[Music] [Singing]

♪ Ain't got no checks worth a cashin'. ♪
♪ Ain't got no apps I can use. ♪
♪ Ain't got no love everlasting. ♪
♪ I ain't got nothing but the blues. ♪

♪ Ain't got no presents in my stockings. ♪
♪ I ain't got no stockings in my shoes. ♪
♪ Ain't got no castle that is rocking. ♪
♪ I ain't got nothing but the blues. ♪

♪ Ain't got no bells that are ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ringin', ♪
♪ Ain't got nothing to lose. ♪
♪ Oh, I ain't got nothing, nothing but the blues. ♪
♪ The bells are ringing, but I'm not singing. ♪
♪ Just seems I'm out here in the cold.
♪ I'm going crazy since my baby.
♪ He ain't here to have to love and to hold. ♪

♪ I ain't got no plans for the New Year. ♪
♪ No invitations to refuse. ♪
♪ Every night, I dream of you, dear. ♪
♪ I ain't got nothing, nothing, nothing but the blues. ♪

♪ Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. ♪

♪ The bells are ringing. ♪
♪ I just don't feel like singing. ♪
♪ Just seems I'm out here, out here in the cold. ♪
♪ I'm going crazy since my baby, ♪
♪ He ain't here to have to love and to hold. ♪

♪ I ain't got no plans for the New Year. ♪
♪ Ain't got no invitations to refuse. ♪
♪ Every night, I dream of you, my dear. ♪
♪ I ain't got nothing, nothing but the blues. ♪
♪ Nothing but the blues. ♪
♪ ♪

Courtney Napier: Ooh. Full body chills. Oh, my goodness.

Nnnenna Freelon: Yes, well, you know the blues be doing that. What stories can the blues help us tell when you think about what it's sounding from? I'm loving that we're talking about sadness, because can joy be far behind? 

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Courtney Napier: This is "On Joy and Sorrow," a poem by Khalil Gibran:

Then a woman said, Speak to us of Joy and Sorrow.
And he answered:
Your joy is your sorrow unmasked.
And the selfsame well from which your laughter rises was oftentimes filled with your tears.
And how else can it be?
The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain.
Is not the cup that holds your wine the very cup that was burned in the potter's oven?
And is not the lute that soothes your spirit, the very wood that was hollowed with knives?
When you are joyous, look deep into your heart and you shall find it is only that which has given you sorrow that is giving you joy.
When you are sorrowful look again in your heart, and you shall see that in truth you are weeping for that which has been your delight.

Some of you say, "Joy is greater than sorrow," and others say, "Nay, sorrow is the greater."
But I say unto you, they are inseparable.
Together they come, and when one sits alone with you at your board, remember that the other is asleep upon your bed.

Verily you are suspended like scales between your sorrow and your joy.
Only when you are empty are you at standstill and balanced.
When the treasure-keeper lifts you to weigh his gold and his silver, needs must your joy or your sorrow rise or fall.

Nnnenna Freelon: So, our brother Josh put that back in my face a couple days ago and it was divinely inspired, because I've been wrestling with joy and sorrow. Are they different things? And there is a lot here; I don't know if you all want to… there is a lot here. We do see them as separate things, but are they really?

Lois Deloatch: The two seem to always coexist. In my life because I am the 7th of 10 children—I had 40 first-cousins—I am in the season of life now, where I am on the younger end, which means that a number of loved ones are passing away. And in that moment when you are tempted to really go into deep grief, you think how blessed and fortunate I am and have been to have had all these people to love and to love me. So I think they always coexist the joy and the sorrow. 

Nnnenna Freelon: Thank you for sending me that poem, Josh, because that… I probably read it because I read him in college, but I had forgotten. So, we have a song inspired by this particular passage, shall we?

My joy is my sorrow unmasked.

[Music] [Singing]

♪ Sorrow is a question joy forgot to ask. ♪
♪ A simple flute, carved with a knife. ♪
♪ Play some melody, a melody so sweet. ♪
♪ You might believe, you might believe, you might believe it's true. ♪
♪ Joy and sorrow, are one in the same, not two. ♪
♪ Joy is sorrow unmasked. ♪
♪ Sorrow is a question joy forgot to ask. ♪
♪ ♪

Courtney Napier: Here's to life and to love. Who is walking through the door this holiday season? Who represents those rainbows that are coming? Who is causing you to look forward to tomorrow? Miss Glenda, that beautiful face—I see the mauve in your cheeks.

Glenda Jones: So, I'm approaching a spring where there's new life, new love, new possibilities. And I'm excited for the first time in my life. I can honestly say, it is the first time—and I've lived several decades, and I'm a great-grandmother—so this is not something that I haven't had experience in, but this is something I've never experienced. And I'm really excited about it. All of the processes of grief that I've gone through have prepared me for where I am in the season that I'm walking into, with new love and new life.

Courtney Napier: That sorrow prepared you for this joy.

Joshua Vincent: So, for me, coming into this new season, I am bringing my more than wonderful fiancee, and I'm bringing my newest version of myself. I think that over the last four or five years, I've been like on this really deep, intentional healing process, that involved countless amounts of time alone, lots of mistakes, lots of lessons learned. And in this new holiday season,  I get an opportunity to like embrace that part of me, that new version of myself. And then also my niece. My brother, my twin brother just had a niece, a little girl, in August, and our entire family is just extremely overjoyed and excited about this newest addition to our family. So, traditions get to get passed on and join the diaspora, as you mentioned earlier.

Courtney Napier:  I can smell her hair right now. Oh, those baby feet. So sweet.

Kristen Hopkins: So same, I bring a fiancee into this new season. Also, I'm bringing some new family members, some new parents-in-laws are coming in. And then also, I feel that I'm bringing poetry into this new season of my life.

Lois Deloatch: I am bringing in the deepest levels of gratitude and freedom. Gratitude for deep friendships with Nnenna and lots of others. I'm so blessed in that way. Long-term—these are 30-plus-year friendships that continue to deepen and get richer. And for family. I've been with my husband of 20 years, and my son and grandchildren, and a new grandson and new nieces and nephews in the family. So I'm just bringing in this gratitude and freedom, the freedom to choose to just be when I want to just be; freedom from unnecessary anxiety and stress, and expectations from other people. So that kind of freedom. That's what I'm bringing in.

Nnnenna Freelon: Could you say free from expectations from other people one more time? Say that.

We do what we do in the moments that we do them in. And the freedom to not have to be excellent at everything. I can dabble. I can dabble. I'll be a dabbler. Are you a painter? No, I'm a dabbler—and I've spent a lot of money on paint.

Because we are told a lie that, we can only be this one thing. And that is not true. Not at all. And each season calls us to be something different. I am so glad I am no longer in the childbearing, child-rearing years. That takes a lot of strength and energy that I can devote to me now. It can be about me and also myself in the role of service in a different way.

Children be taking up your time now. I'm not saying that's bad—but that was then, and this is now.

So we have a closer that wraps this particular conversation up so well. And it's a round. Does anybody ever remember in camp, singing a round? I want everybody to sort of join in. Get in where you fit in, and I will model it for you. The bass player and I will model it.

[Music] [Singing, call and response]

♪ Everybody. ♪
♪ Everybody. ♪
♪ I have ever ♪
♪ I have ever ♪
♪ Loved, loved, loved, is by my side. ♪
♪ Loved, loved, loved, is by my side. ♪
♪♪

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